New discussion area – Racing

I’ve now added a racing forum area for the Hustler forums members area.  If you need to swap race tactics and discuss the best rig configuration the forum is the place to do it for members who are logged in.

23 thoughts on “New discussion area – Racing

  1. I’m currently looking very seriously at buying a Hustler 30.

    I’m aware that they were built to race and I know their record in the seventies was impressive, but I’ve never raced against one myself either in PY or IRC.

    Who does race them and how do they rate?

  2. George on September 10th, 2011 at 6:59 pm
  3. I have been racing whistler for 4 years or so. Enjoyed every outing, never been scared, always feels very safe. We are just about sailing to handicap now so getting competative against similar boats like contessa 26, 32, Moodies. Can’t compete against well sailed light weights with good sails like Sonatas and Laser 28 (yet). This is especially true in very light wind and a slop – sonatas seem to keep going over the waves but I may not even be able to point where I want to go. In a recent race the same was true of the other old heavy boats (contessa 32, UFO) so not a peculiarity of Hustlers. Having said that it’s great to sail past the light weights as they broach round in the gusts, easily makes up for dragging on the odd day with next to no wind. I race PY off 1028.

    I am not planning to swap because they are great boats but here are a few things to consider;

    1 A full set of competative sails (main, No 1, Stronger wind foresail, one and ideally light and heavy spinnaker) are going to cost getting on for the cost of a second hand hustler. SO look for a boat with decent sails or budget several £k on setting up to race. Having said that there is great satisfaction in starting your racing career at the back of the fleet and gradually improving season after season with improving skill and invested in new kit. Depends if you race needing to win or race as a reason to enjoy getting out to sail.

    2 You will need a crew of at least three to use the spinnaker in anything but a light breeze. Four is better, five is a luxury but only better than 4 if we can keep out of each others way. You can adjust the handicap and race without spinnaker but I don’t think this will be as competative. Then again there are “gentleman’s” white sail series which we enjoyed this year.

    3 as with spinnaker there is a PY penalty for having a folding prop but again the penalty is easily worth paying. Folding prop was probably the biggest single improvement to competativeness (apart from antifouling).

    4 Be aware there are two different keels so class racing may not be as simple as first over the water wins.The deep fin 5’6″ is faster than the 4’6″ shallow fin. I do not know if PY favours one or the other. I suspect it favours deep fin in stronger wind especially if there is a lot of beating but shallow may be favoured in lighter conditions but I do not know. There was also an “XM” with different rig and lead keel. apparently v few were made and I haven’t seen any of these for sale.

    5 I race with roller reefing but keep getting told I will not be really competative until I get proper sails. They may be right but roller suits me for cruising singlehanded and my crew when racing.

    In Summary get a Hustler if you want to enjoy sailing in relative comfort, get a Sonata to give a better chance of winning in a mixed fleet and at less cost.
    Jon

  4. Whistler on September 10th, 2011 at 11:26 pm
  5. HI WHISTLER
    WHITCH KEEL DOES YOUR HUSTLER HAVE DEEP OR SHALLOW.
    REGARDS
    RUBADUBDUB

  6. KEVIN ROWLEY on September 11th, 2011 at 11:56 pm
  7. Deep fin, have made some subtle modifications to trailing edge of keel (now bevelled to fine edge rather than flat trailing edge)and rudder (filled in gap between hull and top of rudder blade and made trailing edge vertical increasing area of rudder). I find the rudder modification gives a useful amount more grip to help prevent broaching when over powered and when running in a following sea.

    jon

  8. Whistler on September 12th, 2011 at 7:16 pm
  9. So they are broachable then Jon? Which is more likely? The broach or the deathroll?

  10. George on September 12th, 2011 at 7:59 pm
  11. Please dont tell my wife about death rolls. She thought the broach last week end was bad enough. She is probably right we shouldn’t have put the kite up, gusty force five and probably trying to fly the kite too close as it turned out. Still before the broach we were flying. Haven’t lost control on run into death roll yet. let me know how to get out when circumstances arise.
    jon

  12. Whistler on September 13th, 2011 at 3:17 pm
  13. HI JON
    YOUR A BRAVE MAN PUTTING THE KITE UP IN A GUSTY FORCE FIVE BUT YOU WONT WIN WITH IT IN THE BAG.
    I HAVE A SHALLOW KEEL VARSION WHICH I ALSO RACE. I AM HAVEING A PROBLEM
    GETTING THE CORRECT ECHO HANDICAP . ANYONE OUT THERE HAVE ANY IDEA
    WHAT IT MIGHT BE.

  14. KEVIN ROWLEY on September 13th, 2011 at 4:15 pm
  15. We race Kestrel in open races ..unsure about handicap but we regularly beat Westerly Fulmars both over the line and on handicap. The more wind the better. Club wont race in a F6 but that is where we excel. Make sure you have a decent fit crew and dont necessarily take the helm yourself. You need 5 peopel who know what to do and then know to get out of the way and back on the rails when the task is done. Dont be afraid of woking crew hard on short races…it does wonders for everybodies confidence in their own ability and the boats untimate handling and speed,

  16. Kestrel on September 13th, 2011 at 5:58 pm
  17. I race on the east coast in scarborough. The prominent headland with vertical cliffs has a massive effect on the wind. You can be ghosting close in round the head land and then hit gusts and then steady 5 or 6 within a couple hundred yards. It does make sail selection a challenge and this time we carried the kite too long.

    What is an ECHO handicap? Is it the complicated american one which takes into account lengths of runs, reach and windward legs? If it is that one our handicapper thinks it is too complicated and I do not know what it is for Hustler.
    Jon

  18. Whistler on September 16th, 2011 at 10:03 pm
  19. Is kestrel kestrel of kernow? Did you get her recently as I think I saw some for sale adverts.
    We do best when my wife helms especially in 3-4, leaves me free to tweek and play with the sails.
    Sounds like you race quite seriously. I am looking for tips. Where do your crew of five position themselves? are they; helm, foredeck, two forward of traveller in cockpit and one in companionway or have you got a better arrangement?

  20. Whistler on September 16th, 2011 at 10:12 pm
  21. where do you sail?

    Force 5 rule sounds sensible and will avoid expensive damage and wear and maybe injuries. We have had a big “discussion” recently about conditions fit to sail. The RYA view point was that races should raced when planned, in theory, in any conditions. It is the boat crews’ decision whether to race or not.

    We had discussed with the RYA when I cancelled a race with prolonged 35 mph gust in harbour and got energetic complaints about the cancellation from a 707 sport boat crew. Having said that when the 707 nationals came to Scarborough the race officer representing the 707 class said they would not race in over 20 or 25 mph (I can’t remember exactly which) so that sounded similar to your limit.

    If you did want to persuade the club to lift the limit then maybe a call to the RYA.

  22. Whistler on September 17th, 2011 at 7:15 pm
  23. Reply to Jon’s query re Thistle sails …

    Jon you’re quite right about the sails on Thistle. The no 3 is a standard la\minate sail and is fitted once weve taken the roller sail down. Because I generally end up sailing short crewed with one or two friends I normaly just use the roller headsail (akin to about a 1.5 in sail area) for everything up to ca 20kts. It’s fine with full main up to ca 16kts when I generally put a few turns in the headsail. At around 20kt I’d reef the main to first or second reef and if it gets to around 25kt I forget about racing and concentrate on sailing albeit reaching off wiith a hanky of a headsail. As a result I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I’ve had the no 3 up partly becasue I need to replace the top section of the slides in the forestay. I have a Plastimo 608s roller system which has plastc figure of 8 inserts some of which are broken at top of forestay causing No 3 to fall out as its a tight fit and needs a bit of effort to get up. I’m ging to take the mast down this year to get it done. When we have gone out with the No.3 the boat will easily take it ap to ca 25kts and feels lively but secure. Above that and you’d need to rreef. I do have a heavy weather jib (No 4) but it has never been up in earnest. Most of my racing is in and around Cork harbour and we’d generally call a halt to racing once it gets to ca 30kts. On the caption photo that Andy has put up it was October and ca 25kts. I note your earliier comments about flying the spinnaker in gusty conditions and encountered the same experience in wind over tide conditions. We started a downwind rolly-poly in around 20kts and then just wound up and filled the cockpit with water. Nedless to say it looked spectacular and was a little nervewracking but as soon as the sheet and guy were let off we came back in control. It’s only happened once but like others I’d be cautious about using the spinnaker unless you have a responsive crew. It was my fault for not realising their limitations (and mine). If you do go for a No 3 I have sail dimenisons from H&P plans but would suggest you get your sailmaker to take measurements if possible … it makes life easier if there is a problem.

    Yours, Peter

  24. ptbw1786 on September 27th, 2011 at 4:44 pm
  25. Re ECHO handicap: Jon, we use a handicapping system in Ireland called ECHO (East Coast Handicapping Organisation). It’s an ad-hoc system loosely based on the boats IRC rating (to start wiith) but which tends to address issues which IRC doesn’t susch as the performance of skipper / crew etc as the bat isnormally sailed. In races we use a progressive handicapping system using Bob McPhersons Sail 100 programand review the handicap data before major events such as our Spring and Autumn Leagues. It’s a good means of balancing out actual perfromance rather than IRC which is a design spec rating. We’d be competitive in ECHO but not in IRC. To give you and indication of where I’d be placed my ECHO would be about 0.76, Impalas would be about 0.88.and a Mooody 29 about 0.84. Hope this is of some help. Peter

  26. ptbw1786 on September 27th, 2011 at 4:52 pm
  27. Sorry for delay in answering…yes it is Kestrel of Kernow. Bought in Walton on the Naze in 2006 and sailed to Kilrush in Ireland. Only major mod is a new Beta 20. wonderful investment.
    crew of 5 for racing is one tactician/mainsheet trimmer one helmsman
    two on the pull side for genoa sheets and one on the release….also makes sure sail does not snag on the babystay. If only 4 available then keep the tactician/mainsheet trimmer and the helmsman and two on the genoa.
    once the tack/gybe is done the two/three get up on the side decks…
    We sail seriously during the October series in the Royal Western yacht club in Kilrush. Otherwise we cruise quite a bit..scotland 2009 and planning Brittany in 2013. Great boat for 4 to cruise in…..no problems doing 60 to 70 miles a day under sail.

  28. Kestrel on September 27th, 2011 at 6:00 pm
  29. Thanks. Useful comments. I think I may run into similar problems ie using my roler reef no 1.5 up to 17 – 20knt and then not having the crew, the energy or the inclination to change to number three in what would probably be uncomfortable choppy conditions and wouldn’t resist the simplicity of just rolling a few turns away. If the wind got up further and over powered the no 3 I would then have the dilema of whether to put the roler reef No 1.5 back on again! Sounds like No 3 may get me sailing faster when it’s up and working well but would loose me as much time changing sails.
    I am now thinking if I am going to invest in a new sail may be better being a proper number 1 for those typical summer days of force 2, 3 or 4 when the roler 1.5 is under sized.

  30. Whistler on September 27th, 2011 at 10:39 pm
  31. Thanks,
    Will try that arrangement. Like the tactician/main trimmer. we keep forgetting how important it is to give someone time to think especially when needing to consider tidal drift to lay marks accuratley.

    by two on pull side do you mean two tailing on windward side of cockpit and one winching. and is the tactician behind the main traveller next to the helmsperson, have to say “person” as we had the lady helm race last weekend.

    Can I ask you about head sails? I currently have a decent roller reef genoa which I know is a compromise. Was considering getting a No 3 for 18knt+ but see discusion with Thistle. I am now thinking I would get more use and better performance improvement out of a full size properly (not roller reef) cut No1. Any thoughts?

    You mention not getting caught on the baby stay. I take mine off in all but really breezy days. Had this recommended to me, haven’t had any problems and does make tacking a lot easier and I think reduces sail wear. Also makes gybing spinaker easier (I only have one pole and b stay got in the way). when we do use the baby stay I use a dinghy kicking strap lever tensioned using the 2:1 spinaker pole downhaul. This gives instant control of mast bend and main fullness from the cockpit.

    Jon

  32. Whistler on September 27th, 2011 at 11:34 pm
  33. i race a shallow keel version built in 1969 and have a base echo handicap of 0.840 as per an i.s.a. cert. As i know very little about handicap systems am i missing something. Kevin.

  34. KEVIN ROWLEY on October 9th, 2011 at 11:14 am
  35. Is there any other hustler 30 shallow keel owner in Ireland with a ECHO handicap .I would apprecate it if you would reply.

  36. KEVIN ROWLEY on October 18th, 2011 at 12:06 am
  37. is there any Hustler 30 shallow keel owner who race and have a handicap under any of the handicap systems IRC ECHO OR PY. RUBADUBDUB.

  38. KEVIN ROWLEY on November 17th, 2011 at 10:19 am
  39. Lee races Aprilis 30 SD out of scarborough. his PY handicap is 1055 with spinnaker, not sure about folding prop.

    I have Whistler deep keel PY 1028. that takes into account spinnaker and folding prop. Haven’t managed to get any dispensation for roller reefing jib.

    Zuzi4, another 30 SD is 1060ish, a bit more than Aprilis I think. Not sure why, has folding prop and I think handicapped for spinnaker and roller reef most of the time.

    I would suggest haggling when you are given your handicap. If you have roller reefing jib is very likely to be under size and worth a few extra points.

    Jon

  40. Whistler on November 22nd, 2011 at 11:15 pm
  41. yep john is right i race a SD with folding prop py handicap 1055 i also have a roller reefing genoa think its time we had a sit down with Richard and get it changed help us handle those pesky Sonarters

  42. sinbad007 on November 27th, 2011 at 6:59 pm
  43. Thank you for your comments and information it has been most helpfull.
    K .R. RUBADUBDUB.

  44. KEVIN ROWLEY on December 12th, 2011 at 10:25 am
  45. CONGRATULATIONS to all on Aprilis (Hustler 30 SD) for winning Scarborough autumn series 2011. So, Sonatas are beatable. Role on the winter series.

    Jon

  46. Whistler on December 19th, 2011 at 8:56 pm

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